Driving the game of golf forward with Topgolf

Heather Stern: Today’s guest is taking a swing at disrupting golf culture as we know it and successfully doing so. Named one of “Ad Age’s” Breakout Brand Leaders in 2023 and “Business Insider’s” CMO to Watch, Geoff: drives the Topgolf brand forward as its Chief Brand Officer. In this role, Geoff is responsible for all facets of global marketing from experience design to partnerships, to retail and beyond. Even before joining the brand in 2021, his passion for innovative thinking was well-documented. He was Chief Marketing Officer for Converse during a time of unprecedented growth, Head of Marketing for Coca-Cola North America—leading the strategic vision for all marketing channels in sports and entertainment properties—VP of Global Product and Marketing for Starbucks Entertainment, and has held various marketing leadership roles at Procter & Gamble and the global advertising agency, MullenLowe. That’s quite impressive.

 

Geoff Cottrill: Wow.

 

Heather: He’s also a founding partner of Marvin Magazine and Media, which I’m very excited to ask more about, a publication focused on storytelling and original content. Now, he’s helping Topgolf make good on their mission to enable players to hit 50 billion balls by the end of 2025 and to make the game more accessible. I’m really excited to dig in here and talk about Geoff’s approach to innovation, creativity, his ethos on intertwining brand and culture, and his ambitions for Topgolf. Welcome, Geoff.

 

Geoff: Thanks. It’s nice to be here. That’s quite an introduction.

 

Heather: I’m just telling it like it is. It’s really, really impressive.

 

Geoff: I don’t know about that.

 

Heather: No, honestly, so many incredible brands. As I was talking to you at the beginning of the hour, Topgolf was a brand that a lot of people were really excited that I was going to be speaking to, so thank you for joining us.

 

Geoff: Thanks for having me. I’m honored to be here. I really enjoy this kind of stuff, and I don’t take it for granted, so I’m grateful.

 

Heather: Excellent. I’m going to start by quoting you. I just think it’s something that really resonated with me. You said, “The world needs more play in it, not less. Coming off the last couple of years, COVID, the economy, elections, the world is a pretty stressed out place. We’re just trying to provide a place where people can come and play.” 

 

Geoff: First and foremost, it’s true. The world needs more play in it. It’s as simple as that. The older you get, the more you’re discouraged from playing. I’ll tell a quick story. I was at a golf tournament a couple of years ago with a friend that I worked with here at Topgolf, and we were walking through the golf course and we saw these two 8 or 9-year-old, 10-year-old kids on the side of a hill. They laid down on the side and they just rolled all the way down the hill, and they were laughing. My friend and I looked at each other and I said, “You know if we did that, they’d kick us out of here.”

 

Heather: Right. Or say, “What is wrong with those people?” 

 

Geoff: And what happened from those kids laughing to us not being able to do that anymore? That’s sad. So we started really thinking about and looking at what was going on in the world. We just need places where you can just lighten up and play and let go and have fun. That’s what we’re trying to create and deliver every single day at Topgolf.

 

Heather: And a lot of that also is about accessibility, which is so core to the mission and the ethos of the brand. Tell me about how you’re making golf more accessible, how you’re breaking barriers. I think it is certainly a sport that has traditionally been elite and the ability now for anyone to go is pretty amazing. So talk to me about that.

 

Geoff: We say, “It’s golf, it’s not golf, it’s Topgolf.”

 

A lot of people would see the outside of our building and think, “Wow, that’s a giant driving range. I don’t play golf. I’m never going to go there.” When they come in and see for the first time or hold a club or swing a club for the first time, there’s no judgment. You can be amazing and you can be not amazing. You can be far from amazing, and we’re going to be happy that you’re here, and we’re going to be making sure that you’re enjoying yourself and having a good time.

 

Golf has so many barriers to entry. Where are you going to play golf? You got to buy your clubs, you got to take lessons, you got to play a lot to get good, you got to find people that are your equal skill level to play with or you’re going to have a miserable day on the golf course if you’re bad and your other three friends are really good.

 

So we try to take all that and just put it aside and put a golf club in your hand and let you have fun. If you miss the ball, we call it a practice shot. It’s just fun. We want people’s first experience with the game of golf to be like a warm embrace, a nice handshake, a welcoming handshake to the game. We think that if we do that, more people will come back to Topgolf and more people will start to think about, “Well, maybe golf isn’t what I thought it was.”

 

Heather: I love that idea of turning it on its head a little bit and reinventing what it’s about. It’s golf, it’s not, it’s Topgolf. I love that. Obviously, there’s the taking the seriousness and the lack of accessibility out of the equation, but what are the things that people really, above and beyond that, love about the experience when they go?

 

Geoff: I think just coming and sitting in a bay. Our playmakers, our folks who work in our venues, do a lot of really hard work to make sure you feel welcome and that you’re comfortable and that the environment is fun. There’s lots of games for different kinds of skill levels. We’re about to introduce a new game that’s going to make it a great equalizer. If you’re the worst golfer in the world or the best golfer in the world, you’ll be able to play the same game and the game equalizes.

 

Heather: I love that.

 

Geoff: Like I said, there’s no judgment. We just want that first introduction to golf to be something that you remember as like, “Wow, I don’t play golf, but I just played golf. Oh, my gosh.” If we get that, we know we’re already starting to make an impact on the game of golf. Ten percent of current golfers in the U.S. have said they got their start at Topgolf, which is remarkable.

 

Heather: Wow.

 

Geoff: Every single day, we have more and more people that have never played the game coming through our doors. We want to be that good first step that you remember, your first impression and last a lifetime with many things. I can tell you my first impression with golf when I was in, I think I was probably ninth or 10th grade, my dad put me in golf lessons in Tampa, Florida, at a country club. I played soccer my whole life and I showed up in a pair of soccer shorts my first lesson. The golf pro said, “You can’t wear those,” and the golf pro was wearing shorts. I said, “What do you mean I can’t wear these? You’re wearing shorts.” He goes, “Yours don’t have any pockets.” I’m like, “Well, I don’t need pockets.” He was like, “You can’t wear those shorts again. When you come back to your next lesson, don’t wear those shorts.” So my first impression of the game of golf and it’s lasted pretty much my whole life was like, “Wow, you don’t really want me here.”

 

Heather: Yeah, well, it’s like-

 

Geoff: “You’re really making me uncomfortable.”

 

Heather: “You can’t roll down that hill.” It’s like rules that, in a way, and I know that there’s legacy and history behind why, but it feels so arbitrary. I love the idea of just being like, “You can wear whatever you want. You can be whatever skill level you are. It’s okay.”

 

Geoff: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. So I have that memory of golf. So I actually push it against that. Almost daily that comes back into my mind about I remember how I was treated.  Our playmakers in our venues, they don’t treat people like that. Again, you walk away with a feeling of like, “Wow, this could be fun. Maybe I’ll try it again,” and that’s your first step in falling in love with something.

 

Heather: As it’s taken off and as you’ve seen the real impact that it’s having on the game overall, without revealing anything proprietary, where do you see growth coming from? What particular, either segments or geographies or elements, of the experience are you excited about?

 

Geoff: I’m excited about just about everything, everything that we’re doing. We’re continuing to build venues. We’re about to open our 100th venue coming up here in the next 12 months.

 

Heather: Wow.

 

Geoff: Really exciting. There’s places in the United States that we are not yet. We’re not very present in California yet. We only have a handful of venues. It’s a very big state. There’s parts of Southern California we haven’t even come to yet. We opened our first two venues in Los Angeles a couple of years ago. So I’m excited about just continuing to bring new people in. You’re starting to see that off-course golf, the way that National Golf Foundation measures it, they measure off-course golf and on-course golf, and you’re now seeing off-course golf is bigger than on-course golf.

 

Heather: Wow.

 

Geoff: I heard a stat the other day that took me by surprise. We’ll have to verify these numbers, but I won’t quote any specific numbers. More people will play golf at Topgolf this year than will play golf.

 

Heather: It goes back to that accessibility, right?

 

Geoff: Exactly.

 

Heather: If I don’t belong to a country club, if I don’t know somebody who does, you just simply are not able to. It’s not taking your soccer ball and going outside. So that’s pretty amazing. Again, it’s introducing the sport to so many different parts of society, really.

 

Geoff: It’s really interesting. So I was fortunate. I just joined the board of the National Golf Foundation. I had my first board orientation meeting, and I’m the first off-course golf board member they’ve ever had. So I’m a bit of an alien in the room, but they’re going through the statistics on golf. There are more golf courses in the United States than there are McDonald’s. There are more golf courses in the United States than there are Starbucks in the United States.

 

Heather: What? That blows my mind.

 

Geoff: 14,000 golf courses in the United States.

 

Heather: Wow.

 

Geoff: It’s incredible. So there are a lot of great places that people can go and play not being a member of a country club, but still, it’s that hurdle of getting over what golf has always been. Golf is a great sport and a great game. We want golf to be healthy. We want golf to grow, but the barriers of entry have been too great for too long. The more people you see coming into the game, coming into our venues and then eventually playing golf, if you fast forward 10 years, the makeup of the game, the people who play, you know if today you close your eyes and I say, “Describe golf,” I’m pretty sure I know what you would say. In 10 years when I ask you that question, I’m not sure what you’re going to say, but it’s going to be something extremely different than what you would say today.

 

For us, that’s really exciting to play part of that. The thing I love the most about my job at my age and my career is that you start to think about what kind of legacy you’re going to leave in your life beyond your children and your family. I’m like, “Well, I’m going to participate in changing the game of golf, to making the game of golf different.” I won’t be remembered for it, but I think in my final days, I’ll be at peace with having done something to make an impact on something like this.

 

So it’s exciting, and I think each and every one of us at Topgolf I think feels that and feels that responsibility. We don’t want to ruin golf. There are things that are happening in golf and some of the ... You saw at the Waste Management tournament. A lot of people were just completely out of hand and it was disrespectful to the game, disrespectful to the golf course. We don’t want that, but we do want more fun, more people, different people playing the game of golf. Only good will come out of that.

 

I say, “Look, our job is to make the game more accessible.” When we make the game more accessible, the result of that is it becomes more diverse, and then the result of it becoming more diverse is it becomes more fun for more people. That’s pretty simple, but it’s pretty powerful.

 

Heather: Yeah, and yet profound at the same time.

 

Geoff: So I just break it down every day to the team, I’m like, “Just make the game more accessible. The results will come and the results will be more diversity.” We’re not doing it for diversity. It’s not a diversity initiative, it’s an accessibility initiative that will deliver diversity and that will deliver more fun for more people, and nobody gets hurt there at all.

 

Heather: It’s such an inspiring and rewarding pursuit and really innovative. I think throughout your career, and I rattled off probably among the best brands and agencies in the world that you’ve been a part of, innovation and doing things a little differently have always been at your core. How do you view innovation at Topgolf, and is it different than the way you’ve viewed it in the past?

 

Geoff: Well, I think innovation comes in a million different forms. Some companies have an innovation department and some companies just have innovative thinking at their core. I like to think we’ve got a lot of innovative thinking at the core. The people that started this business were two brothers in England walking their dogs. They had RFID chips on their collars. One brother said to the other one, “What if we put these in golf balls?” Then they took it to a bunch of driving ranges, everyone thought they were crazy. Then they were like, “Well, we should do it ourselves.” Then at some point they were like, “Maybe we should serve cheeseburgers. We should have tater tots. We should serve beer.” Then they started this.

 

So we stand on their shoulders, but I think innovation and thinking differently has always been a big part of this brand. Me personally, I’m a bit of a counterintuitive thinker. I’ve got this love-hate relationship with marketing and the marketing industry because for the most part, we’re a bunch of copycats. There’s a new thing in Ad Age and everyone has to run to it, and suddenly there’s the weeklong seminar in New York City about it, and you’re like ... I’m just like when everybody’s running to all the noise, I go look for the quiet place, and then I find the quiet place, and I find it’s easier to make noise in the quiet place than it is in the noisy place. So I’ve always been like, “Okay. Everyone’s going here. If I go there, I’m just going to be just like everyone else, so the brand maybe should be over here,” and that’s what we’re doing.

 

Heather: What’s a way in which that notion, either at Topgolf or in any of your other experiences, actually came to fruition? We always talk about the outliers and the power that comes from, but is there something that you can draw from that was an example at any of your previous experiences or current experiences where going to that quiet place, going a little bit in the opposite direction of where everybody else has resulted in something that was meaningful?

 

Geoff: Yeah. I’ll give you a quick example. When I was at Converse, it was in the beginning stages of the branded content stampede. And I was quickly realizing that no one was getting up in the morning and stretching in bed and asking themselves, “I wonder if Converse has a new YouTube video today,” but all the brands were like, “We need to get on that YouTube,” just like you’re hearing, “We got to get on that TikTok,” and you’re like, “Okay, great.” So unless you’re contributing to the culture that you want to trade in or with, then you’re sort of noise and you’re  in the way as a brand. So what can you do to contribute?

 

I went to China years ago when I was with Converse, and we were working with these two punk rock bands in China, one of the most unusual meetings I’ve ever been in my life. I went to this punk rock club in Beijing that was the craziest thing I’d ever seen. The passion, the energy, the music, it was incredible. So I sat down with these two bands and I asked through an interpreter, “Hey, if I could do something to help you guys, what would that look like?” They were like, “Well, we’ve always wanted to play our music in another city.” I was like, “What? What do you mean?” “Well, yeah, we want to play in another city. We’ve never played outside of Beijing.”

 

So we all looked at each other and we’re like, “Okay.” So we bought a bus, we put two punk rock bands in a bus, and we toured them around China, six cities during the Beijing Olympics. We shot a documentary film called Love Noise because that’s what the elders in China call punk rock—noise. We gave the movie away to hundreds of thousands of people, and then we won a big Ad Age award for our marketing during the Olympics, and we had nothing to do with the Olympics.

 

So then I came back to New York and we were meeting with a lot of young artists, musicians, street artists who were already wearing Converse. They were the reason we were a cool brand. So I went and sat down with some of these people, some musicians, and said, “What could we do to help you?” They’re like, “Well, I’m a bartender, but I’m in a band. I can’t record. I can’t get a demo recorded because I can’t afford it, but I can’t get signed until I get a demo so I’m a bartender.” I was like, “Well, okay. So you need a place to record?” They’re like, “Yeah, that’d be amazing.”

 

So if I think about Nike sponsors youth soccer tournaments, well, this is my youth soccer tournament. So we built a recording studio. In the midst of everyone saying, “Branded content, branded content, branded content,” I said, "We’re not going to create any branded content. We’re going to give all the content back to the person who created it and we’re going to let them go on their way, and we’re going to invest in the future of creativity.” We made one rule for the artist was don’t be mean to people, don’t go in there and sing mean things, and two, the promise is we won’t make you famous. If you become famous, we won’t take credit for it.

 

So we recorded with over 5,000 artists and the brand, over an eight-year, nine-year period, we grew from a $300 million business to nearly $3 billion. It was because we just flipped it on its head. Sometimes you ask people what you should do and they give you the answer, and then just if you do it, you shouldn’t be surprised if it works. You don’t have to be the smartest person in the room, you just have to be the person to ask the question.

 

Heather: Well, I love that. It’s also that idea of everyone sitting around the boardroom or the conference room and, “What’s going to be the breakthrough? Branded content.” You were out in the world with the people that were your fans, and it’s through that organic discovery that something was developed that actually meant something, and that’s why I think people really crave.

 

Geoff: We didn’t start it because of fame. I used to say to people because people would say when they first heard, “Oh, what if you break?” and I was like, “No, no, understand this.” Let’s say a thousand artists go through the studio and one of them becomes the next Radiohead, which is my favorite band.

 

Heather: We can have a whole conversation about Radiohead.

 

Geoff: Oh, let’s do that.

 

Heather: Okay. We’ll come back to them.

 

Geoff: So one of them becomes the next Radiohead, when they go to Coachella, it’s Friday night and the lights go on, they’re not going to tap the microphone and go, “I’d like to thank the following sponsors.” So they won’t remember us. They won’t remember. They may remember, but they probably won’t because they will have had so many people throwing so many things at them, but the 999 artists that didn’t make it will never forget us.

 

Heather: I love that.

 

Geoff: The multiplier effect works for the 999 people. It’s the unfamous people that rule the world. They run the world. So it’s making friends and contributing to the not famous people and not making it about fame, making it about you’ve got something to say, get in that room and say it, and we’re going to give it back to you and you can do with it what you want, but this isn’t about fame. So you’re going to be a doctor, a teacher, a mother, father, whatever. You’re going to go on to run the world. Then we want you to have a memory so that you’re not at a barbecue in 10 years with your bandmates and you’re like, “Oh, if we only had money to record that song.” Well, you know what? Here you go, and you won’t have that regret in 10 years.

 

So we don’t care if you become famous. If you become famous, it’s probably because you’re pretty good. If you don’t become famous, it’s probably because there’s a million reasons why. There’s no formula for becoming famous, so let’s not worry about that. So that’s the way I think. I try to think like that. I haven’t figured it out for golf yet, but I’m working on it.

 

Heather: I really do want to have a separate conversation about Radiohead, I’ll maybe bring them in a little bit when I ask this next question. At the time when everything was going, streaming and they were going to release “In Rainbows,” and they kind of said to their fans, “You pay what you think it’s worth.” And it was such a bold move. I paid full top price because that’s what I thought it was worth.

 

Heather: And it’s an example of just a lot of what you’re saying. This is something I had seen you do, which I thought was brilliant; but there was a posting for a job on LinkedIn, Global Head of Golf Footwear and Apparel, and there were some very specific criteria. You know, you needed to have 27 years of industry experience, you had to have won at least four tournaments in a row, shot a 48 for nine holes at age three. There’s only one person that I can think of fits this profile, which is Tiger Woods. Tell me about that, the genesis of that, the impact of that, and that goes back to the idea of play. Everything is so serious and self-important. So tell me about that.

 

Geoff: Without using the player’s name, there was a lot of noise about someone leaving a contract, a very talented person in the world of golf and I thought, “Let’s post a job. Like he seems to be available.”

 

Heather: Maybe he’s looking.

 

Geoff: “Let’s post a job that’s very specific to his accomplishments and we’ll see what happens.” And it was funny because I called our head of social media and I’m like, “Hey, no one’s really ever punked LinkedIn before, and I wanna I want to do this.” He was like, “It’s not a good idea,” and I go, “I know it’s not, but I really want to do it, so let’s just ... How about we do it?” I’m like, “I can feel you eye-rolling me right now,” because I was talking to him on the phone, he’s like, “I’m not eye rolling.” I’m like, “You’re totally eye-rolling me right now.”

 

Heather: “I could feel it.”

 

Geoff: “Let’s just post this and see what happens.” The next morning he and I talked to, he’s like, “Hey, man, this thing’s getting some ... A lot of people are commenting on it. We’ve already gotten over 100 applications.” I was like, “Don’t worry. Just wait. Just let it go.” I said, “About 4:00 today, it’s going to like peak and the press is going to pick it up.” At 3:30, it started, boom, all over the press. I think we got 53 million impressions in don’t really read sometimes. Then in order to not be laughing at someone who applied, we contacted everybody who applied and gave them a $50 gift card to come play at Topgolf and said, “Come play around with us.”

 

I think we said something to the effect of, “We identified the perfect candidate,” and that’s all we said and, “Thank you for your interest. Here’s $50 to come play around with us.” So we turned it into a full circle like, “Let’s do something funny. Let’s make people laugh. Let’s have a playful point of view.” 

 

Heather: “Let’s also be ...” respectful isn’t the right word, but it wasn’t just for the fun of it. These are real people, and they had real interest and you rewarded them for it and contacted them and then invited them in, which I think is just such a beautiful thing.

 

Geoff: It was also a tribute to Tiger Woods. We were like, “Look, what a career. Look at these accomplishments.” So it was our way to tip our hat like, “Best of luck to you.” It was a lot of fun and we learned a little bit along the way and it was good.

 

Heather: Creativity clearly runs through your blood. I think I had also read that you have a family who’s also very creative. There is a lot of noise as you’ve said. Where is it that you get your inspiration from? How do you clear the noise and try to channel something that may end up showing up as an idea of something that you’re working on?

 

Geoff: So I’m surrounded by three women in my family. My wife, we’ve been married almost 29 years.

 

Heather: Congratulations.

 

Geoff: She was a creative director at an advertising agency, went on to run a graphic design, her own business, and now is a professional fashion photographer. She is the reason that I’m not still working on some random category at Procter & Gamble because she’s told me early on, “You’re creative,” and I was like, “No, you don’t understand. No, I’m not.” So she was incredibly … and continues to be my biggest inspiration. Then she has clearly inspired both of our daughters, one who is a commercial producer at Puma, who does stuff for their basketball business, and then we’ve got a daughter that’s also a musician, who’s a touring musician and done quite well with her career. So I’m the least creative in the family.

 

Heather: Oh, come on.

 

Geoff: I’m not joking. I think the three of them are far more creative and inspiring than I’ll ever be. So I get it from there. Then I also don’t cloud my head with reading all the trade publications. I just don’t. So I’m curious, I read a lot, but I’m curious and I’m always just looking at what’s happening. I’m always watching what’s happening in culture and just trying to learn from it and just be curious. People always ask me, “What brands inspire you?” I’m like, “I don’t have time to ... I’m so busy with this brand. I don’t have time to ...” The minute I start looking at another brand, I’m going to start trying to emulate and copy, and I can’t do that. If you’re going to be unique, you need to be unique. So I’m not saying that there isn’t a lot of inspiration in marketing because there is, but I try super hard to not fall into it.

 

Then I also practice two things. One, the empty chair in the room is always a good reminder when you’re in a meeting, when you’ve gone through a three-hour budget review and then you say, “Hey, let’s just imagine one of our consumers was sitting in this chair this whole meeting and they heard how little we talked about her or him. How do you think they’d feel about us? What do you think that they would say about us right now in this moment? Probably not much. You think they’d ever buy anything from us again? Probably not.” Then I think I just try to push off and do the opposite of what other people are doing.

 

Heather: What inspires you about Radiohead?

 

Geoff: It’s funny. I had a blind spot for Radiohead when they were first … many, many years ago. A friend of mine from Live Nation—this was years and years ago, I worked for Coke and I headed up all entertainment marketing, and a friend of mine from Live Nation is like, “Radiohead’s coming to Atlanta. We’re going,” and I was like, “Oh, man, really? All right.” Then I went, and the third song in, I was like, “Oh, whoa, what ... What?”

 

Heather: “What is this?”

 

Geoff: I’ve literally been all over the country. I’ve been at every major music festival they played in the U.S. with a group of four or five friends. It’s funny you brought up the “In Rainbows” record. I was on the record label at Starbucks, and a little known secret, breaking news, you’re going to hear it first, but we almost signed them for that record.

 

Heather: Wow.

 

Geoff: They ended up signing with Will Botwin and ATO Records, which was the right thing for them to do, but they were extremely intrigued that we never discounted music and that we would’ve sold vinyl, we would’ve sold it in whatever format they wanted to sell it after they did their digital move. So I had the unique opportunity to meet with their management. They were rehearsing downstairs when I met them, and the manager was like, “So you’re a big fan, huh?” and I’m like, “I’m a huge fan.” “So let’s go down and meet the band,” and I was like, “That’s not ... No, I’m good. I don’t want to meet the band.” He said, “I thought you were a big fan?” I’m like, “I am a big, big fan, but what am I going to say? I love your music? Like what am I going to say to them that they haven’t already heard a million times? By the way, you said they were rehearsing, why would I want to interrupt them?” The manager thought that was pretty cool that I had the restraint of not meeting …

 

Heather: So you didn’t go down and meet them?

 

Geoff: No, I’ve turned down since one other opportunity to meet the band and I’m good. I just liked their music. I don’t need to shake their hand to know how much I like their music. Yeah,  they’re pretty great.

 

Heather: They are. and I also think when you see them live, the more that you see them, it’s just like it’s so different every time, and there’s this almost like animalistic freedom that comes from the music and watching Tom York. So anyway, we can geek out on music. That’ll be another episode.

 

Geoff: Yeah, for sure.

 

Heather: I did want to bring it up because there is something to be said about them and about going against the grain. So let’s talk about being a CMO to the guy who says he has a love-hate relationship with marketing.

 

Geoff: I do.

 

Heather: You were CMO of Converse. We talked about Coke. You talked about Starbucks. You talked about the chair in the room, which I always think about P&G. What are some of the things that you carried through or brought through any one of those experiences, and how do you see, if at all, the role of the Chief Marketing, the Chief Brand Officer evolving?

 

Geoff: No question the role is under fire and under attack, and then it’s going through a massive change. The marketer that stays focused on being the voice of the consumer in the room, right? Because you get into the boardroom and you’re surrounded by other executives who all have opinions on marketing, and you have to be the one that doesn’t get up in the morning and think, “How am I going to sell this person 5% more than I sold them last year?” You have to get up and be the person that’s going to be their voice inside the room. So I always look at … I’m speaking up for the consumer, I’m not trying to trick them into coming back to Topgolf six more times through some trick, some trickery of marketing. If we do our job right and they feel like we care, then they’ll come back.

 

So I’ve learned something everywhere I’ve gone. I’ve been really fortunate that I’ve had some incredible leaders, iconic leaders that I’ve had the opportunity to learn from. I think that’s been great. Then I was told when I got my first CMO job at Converse that arguably I wasn’t qualified for and I wasn’t ready for, I was told I was going to get fired before I even started. My recruiter said, “Don’t unpack your bags. You’re not going to be there that long.” I was moving my family from Seattle to Boston, and I was literally in the middle of the move and I was like, “What are you talking about?” He’s like, “Well, CMOs don’t last. You’re going to get fired.”

 

So I thought about that for a minute, and then I thought, “I’m going to get fired. That’s amazing. I’ve never been fired before.” I made a choice to use it as a liberating moment. I write in notebooks. When I start a new notebook, which I started this week, I go to the back page to the bottom and I write, “You can see that. It says you’re fired.”

 

Heather: Oh, I love that.

 

Geoff: So I know how all these books are going to end, but I know I got a lot of blank pages between now and that. So I could sit here and just look at the blank pages or I could figure out how to write some cool stuff or some fun stuff or some things that are going to be things I’m going to learn or things that will make a difference. So knowing that I think as a CMO and not being afraid of it, it sucks to get fired, it’s not fun, but it’s not the end of the world. All great baseball coaches and football coaches, they get fired. Everyone gets fired and then they go do something else. So as long as you continue to be curious and you keep moving forward, things will happen.

 

So I’ve been super fortunate that I embraced that early. I mean I really didn’t know what I was doing my first meeting with our agency. You’re the CMO, you’re supposed to fire the agency and bring your own agency in and show them who’s boss and sat in a room with 16, 17 people and I was like, “Who’s the creative person?” This guy at the other end of the table’s like, “It’s me,” and I’m like, “Can I talk to you outside?” and he’s like, “Yeah.”

 

So I’m like, “Hey, man, I don’t have any idea what I’m doing.” I said, “I’m in so far over my head right now that I’m scared. I know I’m supposed to fire you, and I know I’m supposed to be the CMO know-it-all and you’re supposed to be the grumpy creative, but I need help. Everyone in that room’s going to tell me what they think I want to hear, and I need somebody in my life that tells me what I need to hear. Will you be that person for me? I don’t know, you don’t know me, but will you be that person for me? If you are, then we’re together, we’re good.” He looked at me and he’s like, “Man, you’re a little crazy.” I’m like, “No, I’m just really in over my head and I need help.”

 

To this day, the reason I was successful at Converse—one, I had an incredible team of people that I worked with there, and two, the agency kept me honest and they told me when I was talking to myself and they scared me and they pushed me to be scared. So carrying that, making sure you’ve got a truth teller in your life is pretty important because it’s easy to get caught up in your own press clippings and start to think how great you are when you’re really not. No one’s as great as they think you are. No one’s as bad as they think you are. You’re always somewhere in between, but you need a truth teller, that person’s been a truth teller to this day. He’s one of my closest truth tellers.

 

Heather: That’s amazing. I love that story, and just the honesty of it. There’s the whole fake it till you make it, but there’s also something to be said about just calling it and saying, “I don’t know, and let’s come together and let’s be real,” and as you said, the client, the partner, the colleague that’s going to tell it like it is and not just what you want to hear. So I referenced in the intro “Marvin Magazine.” Tell me about this and the inception and the role it plays.

 

Geoff: It’s funny. It’s a COVID side hustle. I got a call from a friend of mine named Gary Koepke, who is the founder of an old agency called Modernista! in Boston. Long sold the agency, but he and I lived in the same super small town, Carlisle, Massachusetts, no stoplight. But we lived in the same town. We got to know each other a little bit when we lived in Boston. We never worked together, but we had a lot of mutual respect and interest and curiosity about each other. Then there’s a guy named Marvin Jarrett. He started “Nylon Magazine” years ago and then sold it.

 

So my friend Gary calls me out of the blue and says, “Hey, listen. I’m starting a magazine with Marvin Jarrett from Nylon. Do you know Marvin?” and I’m like, “No. I’ve heard of them, but I don’t know him.” “Yeah, we’re starting a magazine and I’m the graphic creative, Marvin’s the publishing and music genius, and you’re a marketing business person. You want to join? You want to be one of the founders?” I immediately was like, “You’re going to start a magazine? That is the dumbest idea I have ever heard.” I literally said, “Dude, that is such a bad idea.” He goes, “Okay. All right. Cool. Just wanted to … like I think you could add a lot of value and it would be a lot of fun,” and I was like, “Yeah. All right. Well, listen, dude, good luck.”

 

I hung up the phone and I remember thinking within an hour like, “Man, hmm, I said no too fast. Those two people are ridiculously creative and very successful.” So I called him back and was like, “All right. I’m in. I’m in. I don’t know what I’m going to do, but I’m in.” So the three of us spent a year never being in the same room and being on Zoom calls every day and started this magazine. It’s a full big print magazine. It’s only distributed in the top 10 magazine shops in the world, super small circulation. The team has created a ton of content for people like Porsche. And it was just super fun. It was just a side hustle to keep me interested in with an eye on music. 

 

I flipped through it, and I’m an old man now so I look at the stuff, I go, “I don’t know who any of these people are,” but we’ve been at it for three years. Once a quarter published in a magazine, and it’s been super fun. I just provide some guidance on the branding and then potential. We only have one advertiser per issue. It’s not an advertising-based thing, it’s just literally a content piece. So it’s really Marvin and Gary that do all the cool stuff, and I just pitch in every once in a while and make connections behind the scenes for people. It’s been fun.

 

Heather: Well, definitely, it sounds like right up your alley like, “Publishing is dead in the middle of COVID ... Terrible idea. Let’s do it.”

 

Geoff: 100%.

 

Heather: I’m glad that you decided, and I’ll have to find myself a copy, I’m sure.

 

Geoff: Send me your address and I’ll have some sent to you. We’ve been in business for three years and we haven’t put a penny into the business.

 

Heather: Wow.

 

Geoff: We haven’t made anything either, but we’re publishing quality stories about artists in all forms of art. For me, that’s the thing is constantly supporting the arts as has been a consistent theme. That makes me super excited to see artistic and creative people do well in the world because they’re the ones that change the world. So don’t ignore them. They might be the kid in the corner in the high school class that you’re like, “Who is that?” When we were at Converse, I was like, “Who is that?” That’s the person that no one’s paying attention to. That’s the one that’s going to change the world, not the quarterback. Some quarterbacks have changed the world. I am not bashing quarterbacks, but you know what I’m saying.

 

Heather: I do know what you’re saying. Well, gosh, this has just been such an inspiring and uplifting conversation about the way you approach your work and the power of creativity and running away from the noise and certainly music. I always like to end these episodes asking a question, which is a difficult question, I think, but you can answer it any way that you’d like. Who is your icon? 

 

Geoff: The obvious person that I look up, that I draw the most inspiration from on a daily basis is my wife, and it’s true, but I’ve been fortunate that I’ve worked in the marketing world for people like Howard Schultz, who has done so much good in the world. People like Steve Koonin, who used to be my boss at Coke, who is now the CEO of the Atlanta Hawks, the most inspiring creative person, the person who taught me how to think creatively. These are people that ... Maybe people know Howard, maybe not everyone knows Steve. These are people that have had a profound impact on me and that I constantly still seek their approval on some level.

 

I hadn’t talked to Howard in a very long time. A, I wrote him a super long email about the impact that he’s had on my life and that I draw from my experiences, I was only there for three years, but that I draw from my experiences with him on a daily basis. I was like, “The older I get, the more I appreciate how hard you were on me and how much you taught me. I just … I’m writing ...” Literally, the letter open[s] with, “I’m writing you today not to ask you for anything, not to sell you anything because I know everybody, I’m writing you today to say thank you and that’s it.” Then I got this lovely note back from him, really, really a heartwarming note back from him. So it’s people like that that I guess are the icons to me. I think, I don’t know, there’s musicians that I’d look up to and that kind of stuff, but you … it’s mainly people I’ve been, I had the opportunity to work with.

 

Heather: Well, I am positive that there are many, many people out in this world that are looking to you as their icon, and you sharing your wisdom with us today is such a gift.

 

Geoff: Well, thank you.

 

Heather: I guess to everyone out there listening, I remember you’re going to get fired sooner rather than later, so do it in a way that is meaningful and is something you’re passionate about, and then go on to the next, right?

 

Geoff: Just write it down, write it down the end of your book. It’s going to happen.

 

Heather: That’s right. It’s going to happen.

 

Geoff: You know how the book ends, but no one knows what the story is yet.

 

Heather: Yes. Well, Geoff, all the best to you. I’m excited. Look, we’ll check back in, as you said, the way that we answer the question now of: What do you think of when you think of a golfer is going to be very different than in the coming years? Congratulations on all the success that you’ve had, and here’s to the story continuing.

 

Geoff: Thank you very much. Like I said, I’m grateful for this opportunity and I’m honored to be asked, so I really do appreciate it.